Knee Falls: Who Said We Have To Do Them?

by Mercy Less October 12, 2011 - 6:14pm

Over the course of the last month, as Atom Gear has released their new protective gear line, we've heard lots of buzz and murmurs in the derby community about the products - specifically about the knee pads.

We have heard from some people who think this is the most revolutionary product in the sport's history, and from others that complain that you'd have to be an Oly skater to wear them (i.e. "these were not made for skaters who fall"). This week, Atom put this blog post up to answer your questions about the product, with photos that clearly demonstrate that a skater can fall in these pads. They've also created this video for product education purposes:

Here are the questions that have been on our minds, here at DNN/DerbyLife headquarters, and in conversations with different friends:

Who decided we have to fall on our knees in derby in the first place? Why? What criteria was used in this decision? Who tested this idea?

Our best guess is that some early coaches in Texas in the 2001-2003 era decided this is how it should be done. Evidence of this can be seen in Hell On Wheels. Back in the beginning, when our first few leagues came into existence, we made up all the training ourselves, and shared what we knew with each other. Our other best guess is that no sports medicine doctors, orthopedic doctors, or professional quad skaters were consulted in developing the original derby knee falls we all learned for 'safety.'

I started skating derby in 2005, and never once questioned the falls taught to my league by more veteran sister leagues. At 228 pounds when I first started, I launched into double knee falls, rockstar slides, and every derby move that was taught to me with gusto, and all the power I had in my body. It only occurs to me years later, after 3 derby-related knee injuries that precipitated my retirement, that maybe a girl over 200 lbs has no business throwing her body at a wood floor knees first. In fact, maybe none of us, at any shape or size, should.

Have any of us ever stopped to ask why it is that professional skaters (artistic, speed, jam skaters) don't wear giant pads, and still seem to skate forward, sideways and more without intense injuries from 'falling wrong'? I know I never did. The subcultures our sport came from, and the lack of equipment for a newly invented sport made vert skateboarding pads a natural choice. Mimicking their falls and slides probably also made a lot of sense at the time.

So here we are, 10 years later, and what do we know about the physics of our sport, how it impacts our bodies, and why we teach some of the 'safety' drills and skills that we do? I don't have answers, only questions. We'd like to hear from you. If you know how these falls were originally developed, we want to hear about it.

Until we know more, I am really excited to hear more about whether equipment developed for our sport specifically, with a woman's knees in mind, works. I am even more curious to learn whether anyone has given any thought to changing the ways we fall, or the way we train our skaters to fall. Please share!

Section(s): 
Letters To The Editor

Comments

Submitted by Mercy Less on October 13, 2011 - 1:26pm

Something else has just occurred to me:

a) not all of Oly are speed skaters - there are just as many hockey players on that team as speed skaters. So the rationale that only speed skaters can fall this way or wear these pads is out the window, imho...

b) When is the last time you heard about someone from Oly being off the all-star roster for a broken leg, ankle or extreme knee injury? Just saying, maybe there's something to this whole learning to fall differently...

c) I wonder what their (Oly's) strength training involves? Strengthening muscles and ligaments that support your weaker tendons and ligaments? Inquiring minds want to know!

Submitted by Ana Bollocks on October 13, 2011 - 1:50pm

I suspect that bulky pads (which I still use, so far) might actually be a cause of PCL injuries. Too easy to overextend...

Submitted by Busta Armov on October 13, 2011 - 2:05pm

The video needs the "GETUPGETUPGETUP!!" fall drills. The knee fall evolved because it could turn an uncontrolled full body fall into one which a skater could recover from before she even stopped her forward momentum. Also, it's a technique that can be used by skaters at any level. The idea is to recover from the fall as quickly as possible.

What I see in the video is people doing full body falls, and then taking a loooooooong time to get back up. Oly skaters fall so infrequently, that it's a drinking game when one of them falls, so it's hard to say how this works outside of a team that's as strong at every level as Oly.

Hopefully, they'll add "recovery" to the demo video eventually.

Submitted by Dave Wood on October 13, 2011 - 6:14pm

See pics 5, 8, 9 and 11. ;-)

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150326910323757.350291.222900...

(just having a little fun...Oly clearly has some way-amazing skaters.)

Submitted by WheelSmith on October 13, 2011 - 2:10pm

The falls in the video don't look much safer than a knee fall when you place that type of action into a game situation with a pack. Baseball slides tend to lead to major low blocks really easily. And the last slide I saw with the arms out could trip people up and get fingers rolled over. So a skater needs to choose? Jacked up knees or mangled digits?

Submitted by Poobah on October 14, 2011 - 4:02pm

What's more dangerous, someone getting tripped, or someone repeatedly dropping all or much of their weight onto their knees repeatedly? The former provides a bit of risk of injury, while the latter seems to almost ensure future knee troubles.

Submitted by Lippy Wrongstockings on October 13, 2011 - 2:16pm

I agree that practicing knee falls (especially the double knee fall) is really not a great idea. I can rock a baseball slide. I rarely fall in any sort of pretty way to rock it outside of drills. A nice trip or back block or even just a "holy shit where did SHE come from?!?" hit can propel you forward. On your knees. I don't have time to think about nice non knee pounding fall, I'm just falling. And when you're in a tight pack, that baseball slide is probably earning you a trip to the box like Busta said. I'd like to work on getting lower and not going down at ALL but, barring that, I go down. On my knees. A lot. I have the new Atom knee pads. They are freaking awesomely comfortable. I have a weird thing on the side of my leg where my scabs just aggravate the hell out of it. The Atoms love that sore spot all gentle like. I could sleep in those things. But then I had one of "those" falls and went hard on my knees. They're purple now. The Scabs are back to annoying my leg. boo. For me personally (who practices on concrete) as long as there is ANY chance I'm going to make impact to my knees I can't wear these, the cap simply isn't supplying my knees with enough protection. We try not to fall our heads either, but it happens. I wouldn't opt for a more comfortable/less protective headgear because I shouldn't be hitting my head.

Submitted by WindyMan on October 13, 2011 - 2:17pm

I know a couple of professional skaters/skating coaches, and they unanimously agree: Using your knees to stop a fall, slow down, or stop is bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

The pads are there to minimize impact on your knees for the few times you can't help but fall on them, like a helmet is there to minimize risk of head injuries. But even a helmet can't save you if you continually bash your head against a wall...no set of knee pads will protect you from the damage slamming your knees into the ground over and over again can cause your knees.

What I've been taught is to keep your skates underneath you at all times. If you feel yourself losing your balance, squat down as low and as fast as possible. This will either allow you to keep your skates on the ground (preventing a fall) or make the impact of the fall as minimal as possible, since your butt would only be a few inches from the ground anyway.

The best way to learn how to stop is to hockey stop and powerslide. Yes, you can do it on roller skates, on non-ice surfaces. Hockey players (who don't use toe stops, by the way!) do this all the time. Although you need to be careful about doing it: I tweaked my left knee pretty bad trying to learn how to hockey stop too quickly. It's not easy to do. But neither is playing roller derby.

Submitted by Lippy Wrongstockings on October 13, 2011 - 2:20pm

I think most advanced skaters aren't just falling while skating around. Yes, learn to stay on your skates. Find your center and learn to balance. Being HIT is a whole 'nother deal. We were not taught to fall our knees. We were taught how to remain controlled and to get up fast when knocked to your knees.

Submitted by BuxomBella3D on October 13, 2011 - 2:17pm

adding to what was said above, falling as shown in the video will most likely lead to major penalties & spending a lot of time in the box for causing other people to trip/fall over you when you fall spread out like that.

i'd be curious to see how well those do or do not work using knee drop or rockstar. i get that they are trying to discourage it because it is bad BUT before i spent that kind of money i'd definitely want to see or hear something about it.

Submitted by Frosty Peaches on October 13, 2011 - 3:22pm

I don't want to speak out of turn, and I am sure that someone from Atom will chime in at some point, but this summer I took an offskates class with Atomatrix and Tannibal at RollerCon. I was blown away by the concept of "not falling on your knees". I asked about penalties, and I was told that an Oly player would rather take a penalty for not "falling small" than to ruin her knees. If you save your knees you can skate for years, but if you avoid penalties and ruin your knees, it is not that productive.

Again, I don't want to speak for Oly and their training (and maybe I'm not even correct), I was just really struck by this concept.

I think the goal should be to learn how to fall in a million safe ways, and then once this is learned - stop doing drills where people are falling on their knees!

Submitted by Lippy Wrongstockings on October 13, 2011 - 2:17pm

sorry, Wheel Smith made the low block comment...

Submitted by Nerdman on October 13, 2011 - 2:28pm

The rules for skills testing require us to perform double, and single knee falls at this time. While I admire Atom Gear for pushing boundaries with safety gear. I feel these pads require finesse that the average derby player does not posses. Let's face it we cant all be Atomatrix caliber players. So what is to stop Suzy Freshmeat from ordering these pads,Mi and rockstsar sliding right into the surgery room before ever making it through her first skills test. Until the rules change the falls that are required for a players minimum skills, we should think of the safety of players of all skill levesl and body types.

Submitted by Hooligal on October 13, 2011 - 2:30pm

We had some discussion on low blocks and someone looked up olys penalty stats which seemed to have more low blocks against lower ranked teams...what we are starting to call 'tier II' teams ;) Our thoughts were that the other teams play oly so much (and as well as being great skaters) they get lots of practice dodging spread out people. If we all learn to fall in different ways maybe we'd be better at dodging people? I know my knees are messed up bad, and alot of the times when I fall its uncontrolledand not near my knees anyway, someone has tripped me or has launched me off my feet usually.

Submitted by DejaDeadwards on October 13, 2011 - 2:40pm

As a former figure skater, whose instinct was to "sprawl" when falling (take the impact on as much of the body as possible to distribute the force) I really struggled with learning to "fall small" and got a lot of penalties the first year when girls tripped over my sprawled body. Both the superman and baseball slide are more likely to incur penalties than a straight knee fall, so I would think that before we changed our style of falling, the rules may need to be tweaked to accommodate the change.
Great article! My team was just talking about this last week!

Submitted by lexistentialcrisis on October 14, 2011 - 3:36am

I'm also a former figure skater and falling in roller derby was really hard for me. My first instinct is to do whatever possible to not fall, second to fall on my butt/hip, third to sprawl to reduce impact. I have never liked doing knee fall drills because I had it drilled into my brain as a kid to never fall on my knees. Ever. Of course, I never had pads so with derby I just sucked it up and trusted that it must be okay if everyone else is doing it. Seeing people speak up against it makes me feel conflicted because I understand the dangers of falling on knees but I have a hard time thinking of a quicker way to fall/get up when you're in the middle of a tight pack (that would work well for new skaters as well as experienced skaters.)

The only reason I'm hesitant to get these knee pads is because I worry what would happen if I do have a fall that forces me straight on my knees - like others have said, it happens.
And as long as knee falls are stressed and taught and practiced, I wouldn't recommend these pads to new skaters or skaters that are well trained to fall on their knees.

I really want the elbow pads and wrist guards though.

Submitted by Duncan Disorderly on October 13, 2011 - 2:46pm

The rules mandate that sprawling when you fall is to be avoided, lest flailing limbs trip others, which is dangerous to all involved. Baseball slides are great for protecting your own knees, but they may not necessarily be suitable for a fall in a tight pack situation, for example, as there are likely to be limbs extended away from the body, which is both potentially dangerous and potentially going to earn you penalties.

I think that any controlled fall will put some part of your body at risk, particularly the less experienced you are as a skater - the baseball slide as demonstrated in the video looks to my (medically untrained and non-elite skater) eye that the initial contact with the left arm to the floor leaves the joints of that arm (particularly the wrist and shoulder) vulnerable to injury, either from the skater's weight dropping heavily onto it or at high speed, or from collision by other skaters. Similarly, the superman slide in the video seems to advocate a body position with a twisted spine - wouldn't it be more dangerous if someone else fell on you in that position?

As someone with a permanently damaged shoulder (from falling really badly when I could barely skate), I am super sensitive that knees should not be the only consideration when learning to fall right. I HATE HATE HATE doing baseball slides as my heart is always in my mouth that my shoulder is going to dislocate again if I get it wrong. This probably means I actually need to do them more often to get my technique better and remove that fear.

It's an obvious statement that people who are really good at skating fall a lot less, and generally fall safer when they do so, but what does that mean for people who are new to the sport and to skating in general? Falls at low speeds are often more damaging than falls at high speed due to the faller's momentum making them slam vertically into the ground rather than slide horizontally along it, regardless of how they fall. When a rookie skater is starting out, before the've developed any of the technical ability or core strength to control falls to any great degree, wrapping them in big bulky pads and reducing falls to a simple 'try to fall on the padded bits' probably makes sense. Maybe there could be a set 'higher standard' as well as Minimum Standards, to ensure that learning (or re-learning) falls doesn't end with the fresh meat period of a skater's career?

Submitted by WindyMan on October 13, 2011 - 4:12pm

I've never understood some of the things in the WFTDA minimum skills document. Particularly, the requirement that skaters only need to hop three inches off the ground. Three inches! That would be like telling a football player that they would only ever need to jump three inches off the ground, but then have everyone wonder why they keep getting injured when they can't seem to escape bodies that fall near them.

A fallen body is at least 12 inches high. Off skates, a competent person should have no problem jumping away from (or over) an obstacle that size on reaction and instinct. But all of a sudden, it's okay not to have to do that when you're on skates? Kind of dangerous, if you ask me.

Derby is a contact sport that requires more than "minimum" skating skills. If you don't know what you're doing out there, you're just as much of a danger to other skaters as you are to yourself. At least, in my opinion.

Submitted by Duncan Disorderly on October 14, 2011 - 2:51am

I think that the issue is not necessarily with the contents of the Minimum Skills document, but what possession of these minimum skills should qualify you to do. Contact drills? Scrimmage? Bout?

My guess on the three inches thing is that it covers hopping boundary rope etc, not fallen skaters. Jumping people incorrectly is probably more dangerous for all concerned than not jumping at all...

Submitted by Hooligal on October 14, 2011 - 1:10pm

in judo they teach you to disapate imact by slapping the ground with your hand as you roll...its something I still do, and have some spectacular backwards summersault falls and barrel rolls, but I don't get a bruise or anything. I've found as my knees have gotten worse, I fall like this more often out of instinct. Alot of the times I'm still falling small technically.
I'm not sure what the arm/sholder injury rates among judo competitors are.

Judo also uses the 'getupgetupgetup' too, but they put into into the grace of the fall. Judo you wear no pads (but you are on a mat).

http://judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm

Just something to ponder!

Submitted by yamagotcha on October 13, 2011 - 3:44pm

As another former figure skater, I never deliberately fall on my knees. I'm used to slightly twisting my body to take the brunt of the impact on my hip or thigh. You can do this and still fall small. However, both times I've injured my knees, it's been through a low block or a hit that sent me directly onto my knees so quickly that I don't have time to adjust or catch myself. I'm torn between the greater mobility and comfort these pads present, with the fact that I KNOW I'll fall in a way I can't control at some point - and when that happens I want to be wearing something that will give me the greatest protection from injury possible.

Submitted by joanierollmoan on October 13, 2011 - 4:09pm

See my comments from earlier today below the Atom video. As a 6 year veteran rollergirl and 5 year "Newbie Coach," these pads have concerned me and now this video borderline alarms me! True, falling to the knees in derby might not be the best thing for the knees. But the other ways to fall carry with them even greater risk, as does not learning how to fall at all!

Falling "big" increases the chance of other injuries, as well as increases the likelihood you will take out other skaters with you and cause others to become injured. My first season I broke my ankle when I knocked an opposing skater to the ground who proceeded to "Superman Fall" and my right foot got caught up with her sprawled body and lodged under her while the rest of me kept going. Also, I have taught all of my newbies that they should NEVER be flat on their belly on the track, as that makes you really vulnerable to a someone stepping on your back or neck with a skate, which could leave you severely injured, paralyzed or worse.

Finding 187 Pro Knees a few years back has DEFINITELY reduced knee injuries compared to when I started in derby 6 years ago, and I have recommended them almost exclusively to the 300ish Newbies I have coached since. I have occasionally tried other brands, but each time gone back to the 187 Pro. True, the 187 Pro are bulky, and as a tall skater, I regularly get hit out of position by someone taking me out at the knee pad. This past February I too thought I could get away with something less (since I don't fall much during actual game play) and be more effective in a tight pack, and wore the 187 Fly Knees during a bout. That was until The Bevo Kill knocked me down hard and a slammed my left knee to the floor. It was like I wasn't wearing a knee pad at all! My left knee hasn't been the same since.

I am very concerned that skaters are willing to take unnecessary risks in order to WIN thes days. And maybe with a National or World Championship on the line, I'd make different choices too. But what about the 15,000 Newbies around the world right now who are practicing their falls and see the ATOM brand name on these pads and think they will be protected? I am also very concerned about this revised training that Atom is putting out that seems to directly contradict WFTDA. I am all for WFTDA researching, discussing, voting, and revising (if needed) the Minimum Skill Requirements and Training Documents. However, the Oly Rollers are members of WFTDA, and I wonder why they did not take up what they obviously see as a problem with WFTDA training with WFTDA? I can't help but wonder if this PR video to sell knee pads is a conflict of interest? I am not a doctor, but my experience in derby has me putting my trust in WFTDA when it comes to SAFETY, and Atom when it comes to good WHEELS.

Submitted by Poobah on October 14, 2011 - 4:16pm

WFTDA doesn't provide training. That's up to individual leagues, isn't it? Training by and large provided by folks who've been skating for two or three years, who were taught by people who were skating for two or three years, who were trained by people who were self-taught.

Most of the inline speed skating coaches out there started off speed skating on quads. Ever ask them their thoughts on knee drop drills and intentional knee drops?

I don't pretend to know all the answers, but speed skaters, hockey skaters, artistic skaters and classic roller derby skaters (a number of whom had careers lasting decades) all seem to agree that the knee drops are a bad idea. Maybe "the way we've always done things" wasn't a good idea to begin with.

Submitted by G. No-Evil on October 13, 2011 - 5:10pm

Really. You can go tic for tac and say this and that. But what it comes down to is repetitive knee falls is shortening your derby career. It should go away NOW, and shame on us for not doing a study on this already for all of our associations. I see so many try to fight their normal fall that they hurt themselves even worse. Big deal, a major (change the rules) but I am still skating. I been doing it wrong and now I am glad I personally know the way to save my knees at age 39.

Do I always fall big? no, but I don't force myself to fall to my knees either. Though it happens, and it sucks, my PCL hates me for it. Slide out, superman, keep one skate rolling underneath you, whatever it takes to save those knees. Coaches teach your girls the core fundamentals and stop teaching how to hit and kneefalls to fresh meat. Wall sits, and land drills get those muscle groups strong and let them protect your knees.

How many athletes in Roller Derby are wearing knee braces? Oly has a few of them, transfers yes but they are there. :-(

Submitted by Lippy Wrongstockings on October 13, 2011 - 9:43pm

I'd love be shown how to avoid the knee slam when being low blocked or back blocked in a way that sends me forward and DOWN. Not in a controlled skating video. We can all do baseball slides and supermans (I hope anyway!) in drills. Show me how to do this in real life on track action. I've been playing derby for 4 years and i have one leg that has lots of issues with the knee and around it. But I'm not convinced that it's from hitting it so much as twisting, straining and over extending it. My physio therapist and sports doctor also said it's typical for the weaker leg to also have the issues i have (it's my non pusher leg) when the quads are weak and the pressure is on the joints.

None the less, I maintain that as long as there is a chance that my knee is going to hit the ground, I cannot wear these new pads. Believe me, I want to wear these. I freaking love these knee pads, but after 2-3 not even heavy duty falls during scrimmage and my knees are bruised. First time in 4 years I've had any bruises (well once a knee pad moved and I got a bruise from that). Can't they have a more substantial less flimsy cap on them?

In the meantime, it's not a bad idea to revisit how to fall and fall safe for EVERYONE around you.

Submitted by Lippy Wrongstockings on October 13, 2011 - 9:46pm

This is the kind of fall I'm talking about that are far too hard to control and get off your knees https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150326910473757&set=a.10150326...

Submitted by The Cheet on October 13, 2011 - 11:00pm

Street skateboarders don't fall on their knees either. It's done in vert skating because the ramp serves as a slide. Many hardcore pool skaters don't wear knee pads and learn to run out of a fall rather than slide on knees. If direct impact is involved on the half pipe, the skater turns to their side to absorb impact.

How to fall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zLFrV8hcrQ

How to survive a 3 story fall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWGQ1kYq1hM

Submitted by Lippy Wrongstockings on October 14, 2011 - 10:37am

I want to see someone fly at this dude at a nice clip and back block him and see how he falls. :)
I think we probably can all agree that dropping to your knees repeatedly isn't great, but to suggest that it is completely avoidable? I'm not buying it. Controlled falls in a drill are easy. Now show me that fall on the fly in a real situation. I would love to be able to be all cat like and land on me feet every time.

Submitted by Mercy Less on October 14, 2011 - 10:47am

...a lot of us are making is that whatever you drill regularly is what your body will do instinctively in the pack - that's why we drill. After years of drilling derby knee falls, I still fall this way in life. Years after retiring, at a new skating rink, I came off the rink floor onto freshly laid carpet (thin carpet on concrete slab), which stopped my wheels dead, and I instinctively went down onto both knees, with *no* pads.

I am curious to know if there are other contact sports (hockey?) that drill falls, and how. Our sport is unique, so I think talking to experts in several sports and examining what we're doing with safety or medical professionals couldn't hurt. Ten years in, aren't we past DIY yet? Can't we ask for expert help?

Submitted by Lippy Wrongstockings on October 14, 2011 - 11:42am

We SHOULD ask for help. If there is a way to 100% avoid falling on my knees I want to learn it. Now.
If I stand straight up and down and trip, I'm going on my butt and tailbone. If I get in a lower more foward position, yup, I'm going forward. If I get hit I'm going in the direction that the impact is sending me. Sometimes my side, more often on my knees. We should be training to stay on our feet. Get low, strengthen your core. Knee falls are going to happen though. You can't control every hit. My kids don't practice knee falls, they land on them a lot during play.

Submitted by BeckW on October 14, 2011 - 1:41pm

But I did a good number of SLIDE-on-both-knees drills playing indoor volleyball as a teenager. Never had a problem with my knees from those drills (my knees are shot from all the ultra-high impact running-and-jumping-and-stopping-dead-on-concrete netball), but the derby ones get me. There's something about those few inches off the ground in skates that makes all the difference for me, between a smooth slide and one that starts with a little impact-y smack.

And yes on the muscle memory. I drop a knee if I lose my balance _walking_. Doing that so the edge of a concrete step slams into the soft bit under your kneecap? Ouch.

Submitted by Hooligal on October 14, 2011 - 1:46pm

ill repost this here since its relevant to this discussion as well
http://www.derbylife.com/comment/1540#comment-1540

Submitted by Dahmernatrix on October 14, 2011 - 5:17am

In 2004 when TXRG started teaching everyone how to start their own roller derby league they provided their nearby friends in Arizona with various how to examples, including their original drills and pre-scrimmage skills test, which included single knee, double knee, and figure 4 (aka baseball slide) falling drils. These were then passed on to other new leagues such as Duke City Derby, which is where my memory of this originates. At the time all of us were basically just using their instructions as a blueprint, and those assumptions carried on to the first WFTDA skills test. Now here are a majillion people playing and we are questioning assumptions, which is great.But that is where it came form. You might as well be asking, "Whose idea was it to use fake names?" All of the basic ideas came from Austin, spread outwards, and most-- but not all-- have been tinkered with since.

Submitted by TheRev on October 14, 2011 - 7:38am

Im still amazed at how many leagues still practice doing knee drops as part of their regular schedule. Repetitious things like this are horrible for your knees. Once a month sure. Once a week. Definitely no. Practicing falling correctly should be a once a month training drill. Yes it sucks but so does falling incorrectly.

Submitted by Dolly Rocket on October 14, 2011 - 11:33am

Why am I commenting on this....?

Sigh. Anyway.

The WFTDA does some things to ensure a safer game, like standardizing safety equipment and minimum skills (which hasn't been updated in a long while), both of which are up for debate in terms of their effectiveness. But why has no one here mentioned floor standardization, especially in tournament settings? Many WFTDA sanctioned events are still held on concrete floors, or sport court put directly on top of concrete, which generally feels terrible to fall on, no matter how you fall on it. It also poses a problem in that you never know what kind of surface you are about to skate on, and sticky, grippy, hard, soft, slick, makes a big difference in terms of your preparedness for the game. CCRG plays a lot of games all over the place, and most, if not all of our game day injuries have happened while skating on a hard concrete floor, or sport court laid directly on top of concrete. At regionals '09 at the Dorton Arena, we had 2 torn ligaments from falls. I know the WFTDA likes to stay out of every leagues business, but perhaps insisting on some sort of standard for a floor, especially during tournament season would make for a safer game, and save everyone a few dollars on an extra set of wheels.

Submitted by razorgrrl on October 14, 2011 - 12:00pm

I love what Atomatrix has done with the release of this gear. I borrowed the kneepads from another skater to try them out and they are everything I've been wanting in kneepads. (I'm also one of those skaters who skates on very tiny kneepads.)

My background is in ~10 years martial arts experience. The styles I've done tend to more of a self-defense/street defense/mma. As such -- no padding. Period. You dive roll on sidewalks. You take hits to the rib-cage. Sometimes, really huge guys will pick you up and throw you across the room. How do you hit the wall? How do you take the fall? How do you get up to fight again? etc.

I entered roller derby with training for falling from those styles, and was simply aghast at what I saw (and continue to see) about falling in roller derby.

What is demonstrated in the videos is proper falling technique.

Safety should always be the #1 priority of the skater. I would rather take the major low-block and sit in the box for 2 minutes, then be sidelined for an entire year and all the associated medical bills because of a busted knee. While I sit in the box, I'll just remind myself how stupid of a rule that is.

Also, if you practice falling, slowly at first - gradually going full speed, your body will remember the movements. Eventually, falling feels like, "an eternity".

Getting up quickly after a fall is about full-body physical fitness. How many push-ups do you do? Sit ups? Squats? All of that comes into play for the "bounce back" after a fall.

What's important to remember is that falling properly is about eliminating the major injuries. Broken bones. Torn ligaments. It is not about eliminating bruises.

That's what bubble-wrap is for.

~rzr

Submitted by Bam Bam Hiterlow on October 14, 2011 - 8:44pm

Why is a major low block penalty a stupid rule?

Submitted by Holly Gohardly on October 14, 2011 - 12:15pm

this is a very strange video.

Submitted by Wildstyle on October 14, 2011 - 1:17pm

I did that whole aggressive inline thing for a long time, and never once did I go "yeah, I think I'm going to land on both of my knees." So where are the normal places to fall so that you can spread force over time over a wide area? Either your ass, or your hip/thigh. If all else fails and you're falling forward, tuck and roll on your shoulder. Wearing wrist guards and knee pads alleviates this last one, since you can just do a four point slide and be done with it.

The other option is to expand the places that you can fall and not go OH MAN I JUST FELL ON SOMETHING NOT PADDED OW. Go buy padded compression shorts. I wear the Under Armour MPZ Level 2's, and fall on my hips all day. Once you're not scared to fall in different ways on places that aren't wrists/knees/elbows/head because those places now have padding, there's a lot less incentive to fall on your knees 24/7.

There's no double knee fall in that video, and its because you're not supposed to fall that way. Look at the images posted in this comment thread. Four point slides and hip/thigh slides all day.

Submitted by joanierollmoan on October 14, 2011 - 5:06pm

WFTDA Minimum Skills were last revised in 2009. Read that again MINIMUM. Not "here's all the skills you need..."

I feel comfortable with using them as a bar that must be met in order to safely play roller derby. That does not mean roller derby at a tournament level, or against multi-year vets, or to counter the latest evolving strategy or the end of the road in terms of skills you need in order to compete or win. Just to play roller derby with a much lower chance of sending 4 people to the hospital because you back blocked someone, fell big, tripped someone, and grabbed 2 other people by the shirts on the way down because you tried to keep yourself from falling. I'm using the current Min Skill Req as the bar that my girls who want to play in the Rec side of our league must pass. The packs aren't as fast, the girls aren't trying to see what loophole they can find, nobody is jumping apexes. They just want to get to play. Many were intimidated by or not accepted by other leagues looking for higher skilled skaters they can shape into region or national champions. That is not the goal of a rec league, and maybe not even a reasonable short-term goal of some newly formed leagues with long-term competitive aspirations.

I've tripped over fallen skaters before of course. And a couple of times being able to jump a body has kept me scoring points as a jammer! But when I don't make it over a skater in a 4-point fall (which is different from figure 4, to correct some folks posting above), I fall (small) too and don't score. When your goal is just to get to PLAY and winning comes 2nd, then yes, I feel these Min Skills are adequate. When your goal is to win, rank, title, etc., and we are talking about making competitive rosters, etc., then captains/coaches need to look at a wide range of additional skills, including possibly the ability to fall other ways, ability to jump large pileups and still keep scoring, and being able to mohawk turn/toestop, etc. which isn't even on the WFTDA MINIMUM Skills.

In all of the above mentioned sports, you do not have a 5-10 ppl skating full speed toward your face. Falling small at worst sends someone up and over you, with an occassionaly wheel to the giney. Falling big takes out your entire pack and opens you up to a skate to the face, shoulder, back, and fingers run over.

BTW, I just saw a knee doctor about a month ago regarding my knee pain. He said that I do have eroded cartilage in the knee, but that is farily common in women over 35, especially ones who have played sports on and off their whole lives, and is at least as common in soccer players, runners, volleyball, etc and that any of the damage beyond "normal" wear and tear is probably a result of more than just 6 years of derby. He has treated other rollergirls and understands that we fall on our knees ON PURPOSE. I showed him the knee pad I was using and he said he was glad I was using good ones. I asked him if I should change anything about what I'm doing. He said no. The dude is a leading ortho surgeon at Barnes-Jewish Hospital in St. Louis.

I do think the new Atom pads make great knee gaskets, and I support skaters wearing some kind of support under their pads if needed. Even more so, I support leagues mandating injury prevention exercises to hold all those parts in place. What I am actually seeing from leagues everywhere is a RUSH to get new girls and new leagues playing derby, which is resulting in more injuries, discouraged skaters, and weak foundational skills to build upon.

And again, I question, why didn't Atom come out with this video BEFORE their pads came out? Why hasn't Oly worked within WFTDA to change the Min Skill Requirements if they know these techniques are so much better? Why wait until a bunch of ppl bruise their patellas on the new knee pads? Why wasn't the orignal marketing campaign information about falling and not Atomatrix saying "ALL THE PROTECTION YOU NEED"??????

Submitted by Mercy Less on October 14, 2011 - 5:21pm

We don't know for a fact that Atom or Oly's WFTDA reps haven't approached WFTDA with the research that went into creating this protective gear, or their anecdotal findings through their league's training, nor do we know that they haven't raised concerns about this part of minimum skills within the org. It's entirely possible that they did.

They (Atom) were clearly concerned enough about the issue that they invested time and R&D money in developing something they thought was better for the athletes that play the sport. As far as I know, they may be the only people yet to do the homework on what will and won't properly support a woman's tendons and ligaments while playing this sport.

Does anyone else know of any other manufacturer, or the WFTDA Safety Comm, doing this kind of research? There was a University study years ago about the prevalence of our injuries, but I don't think anyone has actually done the work to figure out causality. Until then, everything is anecdotal, and we all have a right to question the status quo, if no one can answer "why" with any authority.

Submitted by Nerdman on October 14, 2011 - 7:18pm

Their are many action sports companies putting research into their body armor products. As many of you know most of our safety equipment has been borrowed from other sports. The new Atom Gear elite pads are quite similar to offerings from other action sports companies such as. 661, Kali, Fox, and Shadow Conspiracy.
These companies designed their slim style pads for light duty Mountain Bike and BMX use where their impacts are mostly in the dirt. I have inspected the Atom Gear elite pads as well as the other brands I have named above. A few of these are almost identical to the Atom pads. I spend my non-derby time working in the cycling industry, where the average consumer of these pads are teenagers trying to look like they are not using pads under their slim fit jeans. While I believe their is a need for these pads at the upper levels of roller derby. I hope that skaters are not marketed into buying products that could put them at greater risk for injury while falling, whether the fall be deliberate or incidental.