PermalinkSubmitted by organeyezerrr on July 26, 2012 - 7:09pm
Yup, total rock star! As a fan, I can't tell you how many conversations I have had about this same subject. I hope everyone listens to "Juke's last word".
As we all know, roller derby (like every other sport has) is growing and expanding, changing and evolving. This is part of the process but I hope it doesn't stick around!
PermalinkSubmitted by N8 on July 26, 2012 - 8:07pm
I'd be happy if teams just learned that it's not always the right play. I watched teams at Dust Devil doing it when they had a 4-2 pack advantage and a power jam. At that point, if you can't immediately get your jammer out by hitting, then you don't deserve an invitation to Champs, and probably not even Regionals.
For a long term solution, this is the only good one I've seen:
PermalinkSubmitted by Abs of Flab on July 27, 2012 - 7:19am
... cause' those of us that skate alternative rule sets know the fun and excitement of jammers doing stuff, blockers doing stuff, fans cheering out of excitement, and playing fuck-you-get-past-me roller derby every jam of every game we play.
PermalinkSubmitted by Hyper Lynx on July 27, 2012 - 5:02pm
I definitely know how hard it is to not just go up and hit someone when this is happening. It's even more frustrating when you're on the wrong side of the powerplay (I've gotten many many trips to the box for not disengaging quick enough). However, I don't think there's a good solution for it yet.
Let's breakdown the current options suggested/out there:
1. No scoring during no pack: seems like it would just lead to other creative ways to break the pack to one's advantage and would be an even harder game to keep score at. She lapped the pack but there was no pack when she passed 2 people etc.
2. Letting the jammer be part of the pack within the engagement zone: when faced with a good team I can easily see a jammer never leaving the pack/never scoring even if she's on a powerplay. Would that be better? Maybe I'm just sympathizing with the jammer here, but when doing drills it's relatively easy to keep containing the jammer lap after lap especially when it's 4 v 1. Seems like it may lead to even more lopsided scoring as we would be able to race lap after lap and prevent the jammer from scoring. Right now if the jammer goes back to split the pack, the team in the back has to skate forward while the ones in the front just has to stop. So there's no guarantee they can't just start running again once the pack is established (it only takes one player to get close/bridge).
3. Alternate rules (made): I think you guys have a no pack rule as well? The difference is that if your jammer gets stuck you can send your pivot to score instead w/o needing a star pass? Harder to block 2 vs 1. So you're basically allowing both sides to score almost every time. Personally I like requiring a star pass if you want to make the pivot the jammer. Letting them just go make it almost too easy. I'm sure it makes for closer scores however.
Since renegade supposedly has no rules I'm not sure what they do. In a no rules derby situation, I'd probably tackle and put the jammer in a chokehold while tripping the rest of the pack >:D
PermalinkSubmitted by Calvin Ball on July 29, 2012 - 12:23pm
how to fix it? Some other options and ideas and combinations to try:
1) If there is a split pack, allow the front group to continue to engage. They still have to re-form, but they're not quite as instantly crippled by a 'no pack' call. A good wall of four in the front should be able to hold up a jammer for quite some time when you remove the fear of getting dinged on an 'out of play' major in the front, even if a blocker teammate has to "drop back" to bridge every time things move forward nine feet.
That advantage might tip the scales to compel power play blockers to go play offense. It might also kill off the mad dash to the jammer line between jams, since it puts a team lining up in front at less of a disadvantage.
2) A "zone defense" rule whereby all four blockers cannot engage against the same target simultaneously, nor be completely unengaged. If you wind up in a clump of four, all four of you more or less 'doing the same thing,' one of you has to peel off and actively go do something else. Harder to ref but maybe worth a try.
PermalinkSubmitted by Hyper Lynx on July 29, 2012 - 4:18pm
Another suggestion (I know I've seen it written somewhere before) is to limit the number of passes you can score on the jammer during a powerjam. If you can only score once/twice on the jammer and then she's back in, it will limit the amount of time you can spend trying to get that no pack by not skating.
PermalinkSubmitted by Angus Con on July 29, 2012 - 4:48pm
I don't think rule changes need to be made because all that does is make the game harder for referees to competently call and introduce more loopholes for skaters to find. It really is as simple as holding teams accountable for how they play. Frankly, roller derby is still scheduled by individual leagues. If you know a team plays like this, don't play them. Let them rot on the outside of tournament play. Treat douchebag play the way you would a douchebag ex. Avoid them and make their lives as difficult as you can because they are douchebags. haha
But in all seriousness, I say this because I care about the game (or at least I used to). So many smart people are using their intelligence to make this game a joke. I'm not a casual fan nor am I opposed to smart strategic slow play. But I think the best thing about roller derby, in terms of being a female sport, is that it's the only real female sport with a fairly widespread buy-in that encourages physical contact. If there's no contact, there's no game worth watching. I really don't watch top teams play any more and it's not because of my falling out with DRD. It's because I don't respect the cult-like obedience to the newest fad or loophole that permeates roller derby. Instead of following, do something different. I've been able to coach a team within these rules this year and still be able to hold my head high for what they've accomplished by doing things within the newest fads. We have strategies in place to deal with this tactic and it's definitely outside the realm of what others are doing. I think that's what is really needed here. Original thought combined with some independence from the herd. Not everyone is buying into this tactic (like MNRG) and it's that sort of backbone that is really required in derby IMO. It's as easy as a team's leadership saying, "I won't play like that to win." I want to be able to respect myself and think that the game I'm a part of is something I can promote to other people.
The 2009 DRD interpretation of Duke's 2008 slow game did not follow Duke. It took a small tactic that Duke used against PPDD and KC to make it to nationals that year and was weaved into an overall dynamic strategy. 2009 DRD was not stand-around derby as it was commonly viewed. It was exceptionally heavy on the contact with intelligent and quick transitions from slow to fast/back to front; the transitions were created by reading the game in front of them. They weren't trained monkeys or robots. They were intelligent athletes that won games by outsmarting the other team and by using superior execution.
So yeah, no rule changes. Just treating douchebags like douchebags and encouraging the talented, intelligent skaters and coaches to change the game in a positive way and to think outside the box. Following someone else's lead means you're always a step behind anyway; so, why do that?
I'll end with something I've said a couple of times this year about this strategy. I'm an old school douchebag hockey player. I love contact, pain, talking shit, and everything that comes with it. If I played derby (which assumes I were a female because I'll never play men's derby) and someone pulled this tactic, I would go out of my way to break the opposing jammer. That may be extremely harsh, but that's how you drive home the point that the jammer's blockers are there to help her and to protect her, not leave her on an island every lap. This is just part of the concept of "no douchebags". If you want to be a douchebag to win, I can be a douchebag to win. I like my chances of winning if I break one of your best jammers while your blockers stand there watching me to do it with their thumbs up their ass. That's why I would never play the game because my background would not allow me to just shrug my shoulders as a team, that's trained countless hours to stand around, used this tactic to win. If I paid dues to my league and had to make hours of practice requirements annually for no pay, I'm damn well going to have fun. Sometimes one person's fun comes at the expense of someone else's pain. That's sports, at least sports as I know them.
PS Scrum starts and fading to the outside (passive offense my ass!) do NOT require much skill to play and both rob the game of skill and contact. I firmly believe that people who say that are at least half-drowned by the most popular flavor of Kool Aid bouncing around.
PermalinkSubmitted by Ana Bollocks on July 30, 2012 - 2:02am
Just penalize the player but not the position. Which would mean that two jammers would always be fielded, which would mean the end of jammer power plays. It would require a switch to seating foulers in the penalty box at the end of jams rather than pulling them mid-jam, and there would be some knock-on effects like the possibility of acquiring multiple majors per jam without realizing it... but it would work.
Honestly, regardless of how you feel about non-engaging offense, losing a jammer for a garden-variety foul has always seemed a bit disproportionate to the crime. I can't think of any other sport where you completely give up the ability to score points in the run of play because of a particular player's foul. Depending on the sport, you might end up down players, either for a few minutes or for the remainder of the game. Or the foulee team might get an opportunity for a free shot or two. But that's about it.
PermalinkSubmitted by Angus Con on July 30, 2012 - 2:14pm
I'm not strongly opposed to the idea you suggest personally outside of the post-jam impact. Causes coaches to get last minute information to change line-ups, which will absolutely cause plenty of confusion & more official time-outs as a result. I also think there's a large unspoken benefit to having pack advantage on scoring passes; by penalizing the player post-jam, the other team gains the advantage of being able to defend the initial pass again, which kills more penalty time and lowers potential scoring. It could be argued that said advantage could impact games more than it should.
Could also change jammer penalties to :30 instead of the minute. I think being a jammer is tough for a reason and I don't have a problem with them being held to a higher standard by being required to serve time. Because jammers sure as hell will take all the glory, they should also receive their fair share of responsibility for their mistakes.
But I do think the culture of searching for loopholes to exploit has become too extreme and a change in mentality/culture in order for the sport is ultimately needed. Rules change and then some large deviation occurs a few months after that drastically changes the watchability of the game. Those deviations come from trying to find ways around the rules to gain advantage. If that culture isn't changed, no amount of rule changes are going to fix some of the watchability problems of the game right now.
PermalinkSubmitted by TheInvisibleNSO on July 27, 2012 - 5:29pm
as impassioned as Juke Boxx is, the rules allow for no pack and stalled pack strategies...I will say I think teams use it as a crutch for various reasons, be it they might not have the strongest skaters on the track or have a player advantage due to penalties
to expand on my first point, using those strategies is going to help win games, but will not help develop skills a skater needs, as a jammer or blocker...and what is more important? winning or some perceived sense of what is "right" and "wrong" derby?
PermalinkSubmitted by violet on August 3, 2012 - 4:04pm
if this is the case, how do you explain why gotham uses this tactic (to the degree of skating backwards slightly once the pack is formed + as the jammer approaches to score) on every power jam?
it also happened during the team USA vs. philly game, clearly seen in the first power jam about 8 - 10 mins in. seems hypocritical to say "play fuck you get past me derby" when your team of the best skaters in the world doesn't even play that way.
all i'm saying is...it's a strategy that unfortunately works and is used even by the very best skaters + teams out there. if we want it to change, a rules revision could help....until the next loophole is found + exploited.
PermalinkSubmitted by joanierollmoan on July 29, 2012 - 12:09am
Sadly as much as I love and respect the WFTDA, since they won't vote or change the rules to fix this issue, maybe we the skaters should institute our own d-bag clause. It you play this way we post it on FB & call you a dick all week.
PermalinkSubmitted by Hitsteria on July 29, 2012 - 10:00pm
Is there a place where that bout is located on the internet? I'm finding the same thing I always find when looking for Minnesota games: their almost empty ustream page with no archives.
Comments
Hey Juke Boxx,
Will you marry me? Because I think I'm in love with you.
<3
<3
<3
<3, too.
Yea Juke! Yea!
Yup, total rock star! As a fan, I can't tell you how many conversations I have had about this same subject. I hope everyone listens to "Juke's last word".
As we all know, roller derby (like every other sport has) is growing and expanding, changing and evolving. This is part of the process but I hope it doesn't stick around!
Much love from the hometown!
Organ Eyez Errr
One more thing
HELL YEAH the bout between MNRG & WCR was the best bout I have ever seen. Hands down. SO much love for those ladies!
Amazing, let's do it again!
Compromise
I'd be happy if teams just learned that it's not always the right play. I watched teams at Dust Devil doing it when they had a 4-2 pack advantage and a power jam. At that point, if you can't immediately get your jammer out by hitting, then you don't deserve an invitation to Champs, and probably not even Regionals.
For a long term solution, this is the only good one I've seen:
http://bankedtracknews.com/index.php/features/109-qtheyre-all-just-stand...
I believe in Juke Boxx
I believe in Juke Boxx
You guys have my sympathy...
... cause' those of us that skate alternative rule sets know the fun and excitement of jammers doing stuff, blockers doing stuff, fans cheering out of excitement, and playing fuck-you-get-past-me roller derby every jam of every game we play.
Suggestions to fix it?
I definitely know how hard it is to not just go up and hit someone when this is happening. It's even more frustrating when you're on the wrong side of the powerplay (I've gotten many many trips to the box for not disengaging quick enough). However, I don't think there's a good solution for it yet.
Let's breakdown the current options suggested/out there:
1. No scoring during no pack: seems like it would just lead to other creative ways to break the pack to one's advantage and would be an even harder game to keep score at. She lapped the pack but there was no pack when she passed 2 people etc.
2. Letting the jammer be part of the pack within the engagement zone: when faced with a good team I can easily see a jammer never leaving the pack/never scoring even if she's on a powerplay. Would that be better? Maybe I'm just sympathizing with the jammer here, but when doing drills it's relatively easy to keep containing the jammer lap after lap especially when it's 4 v 1. Seems like it may lead to even more lopsided scoring as we would be able to race lap after lap and prevent the jammer from scoring. Right now if the jammer goes back to split the pack, the team in the back has to skate forward while the ones in the front just has to stop. So there's no guarantee they can't just start running again once the pack is established (it only takes one player to get close/bridge).
3. Alternate rules (made): I think you guys have a no pack rule as well? The difference is that if your jammer gets stuck you can send your pivot to score instead w/o needing a star pass? Harder to block 2 vs 1. So you're basically allowing both sides to score almost every time. Personally I like requiring a star pass if you want to make the pivot the jammer. Letting them just go make it almost too easy. I'm sure it makes for closer scores however.
Since renegade supposedly has no rules I'm not sure what they do. In a no rules derby situation, I'd probably tackle and put the jammer in a chokehold while tripping the rest of the pack >:D
Anything other options out there I'm missing?
how to fix it
how to fix it? Some other options and ideas and combinations to try:
1) If there is a split pack, allow the front group to continue to engage. They still have to re-form, but they're not quite as instantly crippled by a 'no pack' call. A good wall of four in the front should be able to hold up a jammer for quite some time when you remove the fear of getting dinged on an 'out of play' major in the front, even if a blocker teammate has to "drop back" to bridge every time things move forward nine feet.
That advantage might tip the scales to compel power play blockers to go play offense. It might also kill off the mad dash to the jammer line between jams, since it puts a team lining up in front at less of a disadvantage.
2) A "zone defense" rule whereby all four blockers cannot engage against the same target simultaneously, nor be completely unengaged. If you wind up in a clump of four, all four of you more or less 'doing the same thing,' one of you has to peel off and actively go do something else. Harder to ref but maybe worth a try.
Powerjam limit?
Another suggestion (I know I've seen it written somewhere before) is to limit the number of passes you can score on the jammer during a powerjam. If you can only score once/twice on the jammer and then she's back in, it will limit the amount of time you can spend trying to get that no pack by not skating.
I'm coming at it differently
I don't think rule changes need to be made because all that does is make the game harder for referees to competently call and introduce more loopholes for skaters to find. It really is as simple as holding teams accountable for how they play. Frankly, roller derby is still scheduled by individual leagues. If you know a team plays like this, don't play them. Let them rot on the outside of tournament play. Treat douchebag play the way you would a douchebag ex. Avoid them and make their lives as difficult as you can because they are douchebags. haha
But in all seriousness, I say this because I care about the game (or at least I used to). So many smart people are using their intelligence to make this game a joke. I'm not a casual fan nor am I opposed to smart strategic slow play. But I think the best thing about roller derby, in terms of being a female sport, is that it's the only real female sport with a fairly widespread buy-in that encourages physical contact. If there's no contact, there's no game worth watching. I really don't watch top teams play any more and it's not because of my falling out with DRD. It's because I don't respect the cult-like obedience to the newest fad or loophole that permeates roller derby. Instead of following, do something different. I've been able to coach a team within these rules this year and still be able to hold my head high for what they've accomplished by doing things within the newest fads. We have strategies in place to deal with this tactic and it's definitely outside the realm of what others are doing. I think that's what is really needed here. Original thought combined with some independence from the herd. Not everyone is buying into this tactic (like MNRG) and it's that sort of backbone that is really required in derby IMO. It's as easy as a team's leadership saying, "I won't play like that to win." I want to be able to respect myself and think that the game I'm a part of is something I can promote to other people.
The 2009 DRD interpretation of Duke's 2008 slow game did not follow Duke. It took a small tactic that Duke used against PPDD and KC to make it to nationals that year and was weaved into an overall dynamic strategy. 2009 DRD was not stand-around derby as it was commonly viewed. It was exceptionally heavy on the contact with intelligent and quick transitions from slow to fast/back to front; the transitions were created by reading the game in front of them. They weren't trained monkeys or robots. They were intelligent athletes that won games by outsmarting the other team and by using superior execution.
So yeah, no rule changes. Just treating douchebags like douchebags and encouraging the talented, intelligent skaters and coaches to change the game in a positive way and to think outside the box. Following someone else's lead means you're always a step behind anyway; so, why do that?
I'll end with something I've said a couple of times this year about this strategy. I'm an old school douchebag hockey player. I love contact, pain, talking shit, and everything that comes with it. If I played derby (which assumes I were a female because I'll never play men's derby) and someone pulled this tactic, I would go out of my way to break the opposing jammer. That may be extremely harsh, but that's how you drive home the point that the jammer's blockers are there to help her and to protect her, not leave her on an island every lap. This is just part of the concept of "no douchebags". If you want to be a douchebag to win, I can be a douchebag to win. I like my chances of winning if I break one of your best jammers while your blockers stand there watching me to do it with their thumbs up their ass. That's why I would never play the game because my background would not allow me to just shrug my shoulders as a team, that's trained countless hours to stand around, used this tactic to win. If I paid dues to my league and had to make hours of practice requirements annually for no pay, I'm damn well going to have fun. Sometimes one person's fun comes at the expense of someone else's pain. That's sports, at least sports as I know them.
PS Scrum starts and fading to the outside (passive offense my ass!) do NOT require much skill to play and both rob the game of skill and contact. I firmly believe that people who say that are at least half-drowned by the most popular flavor of Kool Aid bouncing around.
Just penalize the player but not the position.
Just penalize the player but not the position. Which would mean that two jammers would always be fielded, which would mean the end of jammer power plays. It would require a switch to seating foulers in the penalty box at the end of jams rather than pulling them mid-jam, and there would be some knock-on effects like the possibility of acquiring multiple majors per jam without realizing it... but it would work.
Honestly, regardless of how you feel about non-engaging offense, losing a jammer for a garden-variety foul has always seemed a bit disproportionate to the crime. I can't think of any other sport where you completely give up the ability to score points in the run of play because of a particular player's foul. Depending on the sport, you might end up down players, either for a few minutes or for the remainder of the game. Or the foulee team might get an opportunity for a free shot or two. But that's about it.
Jammers
I'm not strongly opposed to the idea you suggest personally outside of the post-jam impact. Causes coaches to get last minute information to change line-ups, which will absolutely cause plenty of confusion & more official time-outs as a result. I also think there's a large unspoken benefit to having pack advantage on scoring passes; by penalizing the player post-jam, the other team gains the advantage of being able to defend the initial pass again, which kills more penalty time and lowers potential scoring. It could be argued that said advantage could impact games more than it should.
Could also change jammer penalties to :30 instead of the minute. I think being a jammer is tough for a reason and I don't have a problem with them being held to a higher standard by being required to serve time. Because jammers sure as hell will take all the glory, they should also receive their fair share of responsibility for their mistakes.
But I do think the culture of searching for loopholes to exploit has become too extreme and a change in mentality/culture in order for the sport is ultimately needed. Rules change and then some large deviation occurs a few months after that drastically changes the watchability of the game. Those deviations come from trying to find ways around the rules to gain advantage. If that culture isn't changed, no amount of rule changes are going to fix some of the watchability problems of the game right now.
as impassioned as Juke Boxx
as impassioned as Juke Boxx is, the rules allow for no pack and stalled pack strategies...I will say I think teams use it as a crutch for various reasons, be it they might not have the strongest skaters on the track or have a player advantage due to penalties
to expand on my first point, using those strategies is going to help win games, but will not help develop skills a skater needs, as a jammer or blocker...and what is more important? winning or some perceived sense of what is "right" and "wrong" derby?
not having the strongest skaters?
if this is the case, how do you explain why gotham uses this tactic (to the degree of skating backwards slightly once the pack is formed + as the jammer approaches to score) on every power jam?
it also happened during the team USA vs. philly game, clearly seen in the first power jam about 8 - 10 mins in. seems hypocritical to say "play fuck you get past me derby" when your team of the best skaters in the world doesn't even play that way.
all i'm saying is...it's a strategy that unfortunately works and is used even by the very best skaters + teams out there. if we want it to change, a rules revision could help....until the next loophole is found + exploited.
F Yeah
Sadly as much as I love and respect the WFTDA, since they won't vote or change the rules to fix this issue, maybe we the skaters should institute our own d-bag clause. It you play this way we post it on FB & call you a dick all week.
Minnesota vs Windy
Is there a place where that bout is located on the internet? I'm finding the same thing I always find when looking for Minnesota games: their almost empty ustream page with no archives.
mnrg vs wcr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwPFu-h0ao0
Windy City's response to Juke Boxx